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Is it time to drop the focus from Goku and Vegeta?
Topic Started: Jan 9 2018, 09:02 AM (2,921 Views)
+ PocketGoggu
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This is purely based on how powerful they are. Goku and Vegeta are stronger than 99.99% of every other universe. Only the angels, and the Zen'Oh's are stronger than them. None of the universes can really challenge them with the sole exception of U11, and even then it's only Jiren.
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Kblo247
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There are still 4 more universes that are stronger than these main 8.

Goku and Vegeta also have a planet of saiyan to teach now, and that’s important as every saiyan but gohan has unlocked a transformation or two in this tournament showing their potential.

The Nameks have shown they can be strong as well as Brianne who has been powered all over the place.

There is also the fact the UI is a technique and not a saiyan transformation alone that he can teach or pass on. I mean in this arc everyone but tien has powered up. Krillin can push goku to go ssj to stop from being eliminated, take punches from bare gohan with no damage, and knows things like goku can use kaioken x20 now from his training and having surpassed his old limits. 18 now has the ability to create an aura of where own and powered up from her love. 17 has shown he can keep up with god characters. Piccolo went from below base gohan at rof to choking out ssj2 gohan and having a fused namek say so this is the power of a universe 7 namek. Roshi can do the mafuba multiple times, 1 shot tien, and have Goku praise him and his buff form. Buu found his slim form which is stronger than he was in a couple of hours. Gohan found his old strength and then surpassed it to become a god level fighter. Heck even Frieza is stronger since he can use Golden without burning out his stamina.

I mean logically we have been presented with the fact that only Tien (who was picked for numbers not by first choice like the others), Goten, Trunks, Yamcha, and Chaiotzu haven’t got a power up this past arc. It’s plausible that with the way they are powering them up that they all learn UI or something important and can help support Goku and Vegeta now unlike in the Buu arc.

Didn’t even mention the u11 and u6 rematches that mean goku and Vegeta can only keeping rising higher and dragging everyone up with them. There is no reason to break the current format
Edited by Kblo247, Jan 9 2018, 09:51 AM.
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We still have the other 4 universes with bigger mortal level, though. There are surely opponents out there that can kill Goku, Vegeta and Jiren only with their tongue.

But if they don't want to go in that direction, yes, when put like that, it is kind of ridiculous how far they went with the power scale. In order to maintain the thrill and the suspense of the show, they'd either have to kill them off, like in the Buu saga, and let the others cope...or whack those moles back into the decent power scale machine, once again. Which would suck. It would only add to the inconsistency.

Edit: somebody posted the same idea in the meantime, lol.
Edit 2: ^ Yes, but they still have to drop an intrigue and a climax on the following arc. They can't just show them doing friendly matches or Vegeta and Goku training the U6 Saiyans, that would be boring as hell. I mean, for a couple of episodes would do, but not for an entire arc (20+ episodes). There still has to be a major boss somewhere, like always. Oh, and I do hope they will never introduce Brianne ever again.
Edited by Bad User, Jan 9 2018, 10:14 AM.
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Kblo247
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They can pretty much steal from other universes to power guys up too.

- Yamcha, Tien, and Chaotzu can copy the Trio de Dangers and attack formations
- 18 can power of love her way through it
- Roshi showed vs u4 he can be tricky as it gets
- Piccolo saw what fusing a bunch of Nameks does
- Goten and Trunks can copy the girls fusion and teamwork
- 17 can learn from the other machines with how observant he is
- Hits time skip can be tried to be copied, would really work from Krillin since he has seen time stuff multiple times
- We have kaioken, ultra instinct, the old kai ritual, and so on
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StrenuousSpider
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Like a few others have said the other 4 universe are stronger as well. We get a statement from one of them that they did not know anyone of this level of power existed in the smaller universes and that was when UI goku and jiren where fighting. So its safe to assume they have several people on that level.
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Notaka
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You know what, I'd like the characters going to these 4 universes searching for a secret macguffin to help Goku and Vegeta.

Say there's a new threat, weaker than Jiren but makes up for being more intelligent, decides to take over the universes by sealing any potential threats, which includes the gods(The gods of destruction, and the strongest fighters of each universe) as a result Goku and Vegeta, U1, U5,U8 and U12's strongest fighters are also sealed and unable to fight and free their own universes.

As a result, The universes minus their strongest fighters have to cooperate and defeat that multi universal threat, and that's where I'd like characters not named Goku or Vegeta to have some focus and degree of importance. Maybe Gohan could reclaim his title of strongest non fused fighter ?
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Would just like to remind everyone that mortal level isn't determined by purely power, it was described as a myriad of factors, with average power amongst mortals being almost irrelevant.

Edit: Which means those other universes don't necessarily have anyone on the level of Goku or Jiren. They could just be far more of a prosperous and advanced universe.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Jan 9 2018, 02:39 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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Jiren is the legendary mortal said to be stronger than a god of destruction, one title for one guy. Whis said this before the tournament was announced and before we were told only 8 would compete. So the other universes' mortals are not on Jiren's level. He is that one legendary mortal.

This could of course be retconned with a bit of a back pedal from Whis but as of now the only beings stronger than Jiren are gods and angels, these other universes being highly rated has little to do with strength. Universe 7 has a majority of strong mortals who I think have basically eliminated every other universe and they're second from the bottom.

The ranking is based on moral and productive civilisations in each universe I believe, more than anything else. If Super wanted to be clever and go in a different direction, the threat from one of these other universes could be some advanced technology that strip Goku and Vegeta of their strength, leaving them helpless and room for others to step up.

Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 9 2018, 03:32 PM.
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I have a personal objection against Goku and Vegeta continuing to hold a stranglehold on the narrational investments and pithy involvement with the core plotline of the various arcs just on simple principal alone. It's become a repetitious trend with a predictable beginning, middle and end. You say that the others see involvement? Yes, they do, but only in an extensionally limited manner that's occasional and accessory like; not a core component of the plotline itself. Dragon Ball didn't give much leeway with proactive involvement against the main bad guy, that's true. However, when you decide to resurrect a decades old series don't be surprised to find criticism and differing expectations from fans who may have more standards for anime. It's going to be critiqued differently than what was used back then. If they don't won't to manoeuvre anything then maybe the rating should be changed to kodomo and listed amongst other small child entertainment products like Doraemon and Hello Kitty - not "shonen" which can refer to teenagers and those as old as 18.

Some others may argue that these other characters have nothing to offer from a story perspective. My responce would be to ask what Vegeta had to offer after the Buu arc when his personal story was supposed to have been resolved and his character having come full circle? Surely he would be phased out and the cyclical routine of rivals would be perpetuated for Goku by introducing a new fresh face while Vegeta slips into obscurity. But of course that didn't happen. They decided to inject new life into his character in any manner possible so as to give his involvement new intrigue and determination. The others could just as easily have new material written for them with investments in their trials, interactions with others, and actions all having a consequential impact. But that's only one aspect to the story.

Goku is the protagonist and he should play an intrinsic role in things. I'm wondering where you draw the line and begin to question the efficacies of retaining a haggard old formula of shortfall, resurgence and then supremacy with nothing different to any of it. This isn't a grievance towards the notion of Goku being the best at fights per se, just this atmospheric sense of haplessness and defeatism where nothing can be achieved nor the story be directed without him. There's no spark of originality in the mindsets of these characters. They all have deteriorated into a lethargic dependency on one character with what seems like no substantive presence in how events are shaped and pan out (not referring to the occasional crumbs in fights that are tossed out in the RoF and ToP arcs). Where's their own ambition and pride? Can they form intricate relationships with people and distinguish themselves with their own accomplishments?

I guess those are my thoughts on the question. I confess to harbouring some animosity towards some of the structural modeling and character type centrality of the series in recent days.
Edited by Thiln, Jan 10 2018, 12:55 AM.
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StrenuousSpider
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Goddess Ultimecia
Jan 9 2018, 02:38 PM
Would just like to remind everyone that mortal level isn't determined by purely power, it was described as a myriad of factors, with average power amongst mortals being almost irrelevant.

Edit: Which means those other universes don't necessarily have anyone on the level of Goku or Jiren. They could just be far more of a prosperous and advanced universe.
The others were surpised people like UI goku and jiren existed which means they have just as strong if not stronger mortals.
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superperfectnerd
Jan 9 2018, 03:29 PM
Jiren is the legendary mortal said to be stronger than a god of destruction, one title for one guy. Whis said this before the tournament was announced and before we were told only 8 would compete. So the other universes' mortals are not on Jiren's level. He is that one legendary mortal.

This could of course be retconned with a bit of a back pedal from Whis but as of now the only beings stronger than Jiren are gods and angels, these other universes being highly rated has little to do with strength. Universe 7 has a majority of strong mortals who I think have basically eliminated every other universe and they're second from the bottom.

The ranking is based on moral and productive civilisations in each universe I believe, more than anything else. If Super wanted to be clever and go in a different direction, the threat from one of these other universes could be some advanced technology that strip Goku and Vegeta of their strength, leaving them helpless and room for others to step up.

Double post srry.

you said this mortal was talked about before we knew only 8 were fighting? I thought it was said before but anyway if that is true that means jiren dose not have to be the mortal that whis was mentioning. It also dose not help that jiren is only said to be at destroyer level. whis also has doubt that he is. With whis saying the rumor may be true and jiren may be that mortal nothing there says he is positive. And like i said the other 4 have equal to or stronger people then UI goku and jiren at thar point.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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You realistically can't shift focus from Goku given that the story has been mostly about him up to this point. If focus were to be shifted from Goku and Vegeta, it would have to focus on a new generation of characters, which means none of the remaining cast would be around either. A tournament setting is the best way to get the most out of the supporting cast, as evidenced by the Tournament of Power.
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Kblo247
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superperfectnerd
Jan 9 2018, 03:29 PM
Jiren is the legendary mortal said to be stronger than a god of destruction, one title for one guy. Whis said this before the tournament was announced and before we were told only 8 would compete. So the other universes' mortals are not on Jiren's level. He is that one legendary mortal.

This could of course be retconned with a bit of a back pedal from Whis but as of now the only beings stronger than Jiren are gods and angels, these other universes being highly rated has little to do with strength. Universe 7 has a majority of strong mortals who I think have basically eliminated every other universe and they're second from the bottom.

The ranking is based on moral and productive civilisations in each universe I believe, more than anything else. If Super wanted to be clever and go in a different direction, the threat from one of these other universes could be some advanced technology that strip Goku and Vegeta of their strength, leaving them helpless and room for others to step up.

The others do make note from the other universes that Goku and the others are shockingly fighting well for lower universes. They give them back handed compliments which make it seems like Goku, Vegeta, Hit, Kefla, Jiren, Toppo, 17, Brianne, etc are all doing what is mundane or average based on what they see but exceeds what they expected from them
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Kblo247
Jan 10 2018, 03:14 AM
superperfectnerd
Jan 9 2018, 03:29 PM
Jiren is the legendary mortal said to be stronger than a god of destruction, one title for one guy. Whis said this before the tournament was announced and before we were told only 8 would compete. So the other universes' mortals are not on Jiren's level. He is that one legendary mortal.

This could of course be retconned with a bit of a back pedal from Whis but as of now the only beings stronger than Jiren are gods and angels, these other universes being highly rated has little to do with strength. Universe 7 has a majority of strong mortals who I think have basically eliminated every other universe and they're second from the bottom.

The ranking is based on moral and productive civilisations in each universe I believe, more than anything else. If Super wanted to be clever and go in a different direction, the threat from one of these other universes could be some advanced technology that strip Goku and Vegeta of their strength, leaving them helpless and room for others to step up.

The others do make note from the other universes that Goku and the others are shockingly fighting well for lower universes. They give them back handed compliments which make it seems like Goku, Vegeta, Hit, Kefla, Jiren, Toppo, 17, Brianne, etc are all doing what is mundane or average based on what they see but exceeds what they expected from them
If that's the way it goes then that is different to what was initially suggested with there being one legendary warrior beyond/at destroyer level from 1 of the 12 universes.

An entire new cast set hundreds of years in the future could work as a fresh start but Goku and Vegeta are so lucrative and the only two who are adamant about constant fighting, in a show where fighting drives the narrative. It's a shame others fall by the wayside but the truth is certain rules of the universe have been established like the enormous potential of the hybrids yet the majority of the fandom just wants Goku and Vegeta to do most of the fighting, hence why Goten and Trunks can't even age and why there always needs to be a reason for the hybrids to slack, because if they trained like their fathers then Goku and Vegeta would become redundant.

Look at Kid Boo, Gohan or Gotenks could have sneezed him out of existence logically but it's left to Goku and Vegeta and Toei even changed the implication of dialogue to imply Kid Boo was stronger than ever, they leave it like that in Kai too so that people think ssj3 Goku is above Gohan and Gotenks. Previous sagas had the luxury of Gohan as a child still growing, they could imply he had immense potential but his more experienced father still led the way... for now. Then when it came to the Boo saga Gohan as an adult brought past his potential must logically be above his father? Surely? It's been implied throughout the whole damn show but Goku is more popular, so they had to have in universe reasons for Gohan to be depowered over and over again or Goku facing the major threat makes no sense.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 10 2018, 04:54 AM.
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StrenuousSpider
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superperfectnerd
Jan 10 2018, 04:50 AM
Kblo247
Jan 10 2018, 03:14 AM
superperfectnerd
Jan 9 2018, 03:29 PM
Jiren is the legendary mortal said to be stronger than a god of destruction, one title for one guy. Whis said this before the tournament was announced and before we were told only 8 would compete. So the other universes' mortals are not on Jiren's level. He is that one legendary mortal.

This could of course be retconned with a bit of a back pedal from Whis but as of now the only beings stronger than Jiren are gods and angels, these other universes being highly rated has little to do with strength. Universe 7 has a majority of strong mortals who I think have basically eliminated every other universe and they're second from the bottom.

The ranking is based on moral and productive civilisations in each universe I believe, more than anything else. If Super wanted to be clever and go in a different direction, the threat from one of these other universes could be some advanced technology that strip Goku and Vegeta of their strength, leaving them helpless and room for others to step up.

The others do make note from the other universes that Goku and the others are shockingly fighting well for lower universes. They give them back handed compliments which make it seems like Goku, Vegeta, Hit, Kefla, Jiren, Toppo, 17, Brianne, etc are all doing what is mundane or average based on what they see but exceeds what they expected from them
If that's the way it goes then that is different to what was initially suggested with there being one legendary warrior beyond/at destroyer level from 1 of the 12 universes.

An entire new cast set hundreds of years in the future could work as a fresh start but Goku and Vegeta are so lucrative and the only two who are adamant about constant fighting, in a show where fighting drives the narrative. It's a shame others fall by the wayside but the truth is certain rules of the universe have been established like the enormous potential of the hybrids yet the majority of the fandom just wants Goku and Vegeta to do most of the fighting, hence why Goten and Trunks can't even age and why there always needs to be a reason for the hybrids to slack, because if they trained like their fathers then Goku and Vegeta would become redundant.

Look at Kid Boo, Gohan or Gotenks could have sneezed him out of existence logically but it's left to Goku and Vegeta and Toei even changed the implication of dialogue to imply Kid Boo was stronger than ever, they leave it like that in Kai too so that people think ssj3 Goku is above Gohan and Gotenks.
That warrior could be from one of the 4 universes it dose not have to be jiren. The mortal stronger and the mortal that matchs.

Jiren has yet to be confirmed or shown to be stronger then all the gods. Like i said before whis is not certain jiren is the guy from the rumor. Plus the rumor could be exaggerated as well.
We were originally ment to believe that the mortal was from the universe that uad a god that beat beerus but it turned out false. So why dose this have to be true in the manner he is in the tournament. The tournament could be setting up for goku and beerus second fight. So the next arc of the series could be about this mortal that surpasses the gods. Then by time thats over go into Uub some because i dont think they will leave him out of the series. And i hope for the love of god they go farther into the future into the time frame GT happens so these people that believe GT still takes place after super can put a cork in it lol.
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